Talk:Earth-Kzin Wars
Man-Kzinti wars Ummm... hello? it says here that the Man-Kzinti wars were concluded in the 2060's Humanity didn't even have warp drive or make first contact until 2063!!! Can they be rendered non-canon for such inaccuracies? especially since its TAS? -I AM WEYOUN 22:15, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC) :Today we don't have warp drive either, and yet Men went to the Moon -- not all wars need to be fought with warp-capable ships. Also it would appear that "First Contact" made the error, because the TAS episode was first -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 10:23, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC) ::TAS is non-canon, live Star Trek shows are canon. ::: No, no, TAS is considered canon for MA. But I think First Contact should be considered to be correct because its infinitely cooler. - 18:07, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC) :::: It's clearly that the Kzinti Wars are not canon in Trek Univers; however, they are considered canon by MA policy (a decision very questionable)... Obviously Kzinti Wars remain non-canon outside MA. In the 2060's humanity was still suffering for the World War III, and an alien race could easily destroy all Human civilization by a very simple attack from the planet orbit. This is the more clear demonstration of the MA mistake in considering canon TAS. Reference quotes If someone with access to the "The Slaver Weapon" could transcribe the exact quote and speaker of the statement regarding the 'Earth-Kzin Wars ending 200 years ago', please do so under this paragraph. Any other canon quotes relevant to the Kzinti species and the E-K Wars are also welcome for archivist's future reference. This is an attempt to help establish clarification, along the lines of Alan's work on Talk:Eugenics Wars. --Aurelius Kirk 02:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC) ---- ---- * KIRK: There's been peace in the Federation for over one hundred years. * STAVOS: That is a lie. What about the Eugenics Wars? The Galactic Wars? What of the depredations of the Romulans, the Klingons and the Kzinti? An army of Spock duplicates is necessary to subdue them. * KIRK: You're the fifth Keniclius. What makes you so sure what you believe is truth isn't just old news? Your predecessors could have been out of touch with our advances for two centuries. ---- ---- * UHURA: Where are we? * SPOCK: A Kzinti spacecraft. * SULU: That isn't good. Kzinti are not supposed to have phasers are they? * SPOCK: The Treaty of Sirius does not permit any weapons at all, beyond police vessels. Obviously the Treaty has been broken. ---- * SULU: The Kzinti fought four wars with Humankind and lost all of them. The last one was 200 years ago and you haven't learned a thing since. * CHUFT CAPTAIN: Guard your speech. None of my crew has tasted Human meat as our ancestors did. We would welcome the opportunity. Always you have had superior equipment, we seek a weapon that would defeat you at last. ---- Discussion :Like Spock's "a century ago" quote, I don't think it is wise to take "200 years ago" at face value, but as a general timeframe. All that can be said for sure is that it had to occurred after First Contact in 2063. --Alan del Beccio 04:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC) ::I think the bigger issue here is of our canon policy in general. This reinforces by belief that we should give higher precedent in canon to live-action. Save one remark in TAS: The Infinite Vulcan, we have never heard of these wars, and they seem to contradict information given in Enterprise. Jaz talk | novels 05:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC) :::Jaz is correct. I would go so far as to say that the animated series as a whole has so many conflicts with every live action series, including TOS, that Paramount is right to discount them as a whole from canon. I know that is not the current editorial stance for Memory Alpha; it is simply my opinion. So any decision that places animated episodes and the information contained therein alongside comic books and other non-canon material has my full support. Aholland 05:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC) Alan - thanks for helping with those quotes. I think it's reasonable to consider '200 years' as a general timeframe, but it's just as likely that that Sulu could err on the high side or the low side. I'm uncomfortable with pegging the beginning at 2063 because of the era's murky history and it unnecessarily excludes reasonable possibilities to no real benefit. *Whatever the date of the final victory, it's at the rump of four interstellar wars in an age of maybe sub-light speeds, or at best, Warp 2. Four wars also means three tangible periods of absence of war in between, and with the time involved over distances of space, an additional period of coming to understand you have indeed returned to a state of war. This could have been a very long period. *It's not a stretch to imagine sublight DY-200s (I know) running into some bad cats in the years before 2063, and their radio dispatches not reaching Earth until well after Vulcans established their first cultural exchange missions. A great deal of this war could have been fought by independendly by forces from Earth, but with Earth itself having very little to do with the outcome. *The terms of the Treaty of Sirius suggest the kitties were ultimately whipped so soundly, this conflict might quickly have become a forgettable, even embarrassing footnote in latter days, but the grandiose label of "Wars" survived. *The Vulcan First Contact is not Humanity's "First Contact" by a longshot, just the truly meaningful FC of the era. Well known historic firsts almost always have lesser-known antecedents that bite at their heels for credit. Leif Ericson might have made it to North America in the 11th century, but Columbus's discovery was far more consequential. These thoughts are verboten for an article, and I won't attempt include them. Just consider this my vote against mentioning 2063. I'd like to let the ambiguity stand. I'll take a run at this later and test something like "the series of conflicts ended in the latter-half of the 21st Century." --Aurelius Kirk 07:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC) :::Despite my feelings, here are a couple of thoughts on the issue at hand. Aurelius Kirk is right: Sulu is a good officer, but I don't think we need to be quite as blindly trusting of his numbers as, say, Spock. So circa 2069 would be a good solution, as would circa 2070's. The post-atomic horror was in full swing, but space exploration - with warp - still survived and thrived in parts of the world from what we know of history from TNG and ENT. And the level of help from the Vulcans during the wars is unknown. So . . . if the Kzin here are not quite the formidable enemies from Niven's Known Space, we could postulate four very short wars over a short timespan (maybe each war "ending" because of a Kzin surrender, but starting back up because of an attack by one party or the other?) from the late 2060's or early 2070's to 2080's. The timeline wouldn't have to be affected much if the Kzin ships were rather primative, the Vulcans helped (since the Earth fleet wouldn't have been much), and the effect on Earth itself (maybe due to very limited battles in deep space instead, with quick Kzinti surrenders?) was viewed as minimal. The Kzin here whine about technology, so perhaps they always had limited tech and never became much to talk about in the Quadrant. And here's a thought for you if you like the animated: could M'Ress be Kzinti? Aholland 15:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC) ::::To start with the last question: M'Ress is Caitian. Note that even though the backstory of first warp flight was not "invented" when "The Slaver Weapon"/"The Soft Weapon" was written, it perfectly fits into Star Trek canon. Because the Kzinti in Niven's universe were finally defeated when Earth aquired FTL-travel. Of course this would need to bend the understanding of 2063's first contact. Furthermore it were mainly the Earth colonies which suffered under Kzinti occupation and we don't know the exact state of mid 21st century colonisation of the solar system or beyond either. Earth starships were going to leave the system as of 2037 -- Kobi - [[ :Kobi|( )]] 16:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC) :::My point on M'Ress was that her species was never identified on screen, and use of Caitian is non-canon. Maybe she's a spy! I know about the guide where her species was discussed, I was just trying to inject a little interest into the discussion. I disagree, however, with "bending" the events of First Contact; they would have to break entirely. Earth ships were operating only in and around the solar system in the 2030s, not outside it. No one has ever mentioned the Kzinti outside of TAS, and having wars at other than FTL makes no sense in the Trek universe unless you want them to go on a reeally long time. Trying to fit it in as you suggest just won't work. In my opinon. Aholland 19:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC) ::I agree with Aholland - The Slaver Weapon was really just Larry Niven trying to recycle an existing story, but ST:FC specifically intended to show Earth's first (documented) contact with an alien species. Jaz talk | novels 20:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC) :::"The Soft Weapon" was a good story. And Niven's contribution to Trek was very clever, if a little bit of a cheat. (Read "The Mote in God's Eye" with its Scottish engineer and starship and see if you don't see a little bit of homage going on!) But trying to really fit it into the patchwork of continuity that Trek has built up over the years won't work unless you postulate a few minor skirmishes, done quickly, after FTL, and of no real lasting consequence to Earth or the Federation. Then you could say the Kzinti are there, but not in any way like Niven has them in Known Space. Aholland 21:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC) Unsupported information removed/rename proposed The dialogue of the episode says: "The Kzinti fought four wars with humankind and lost all of them. The last one was 200 years ago." There is no specific mention of Earth, only humans. We should not assume the wars directly involved Earth as a location or as a political entity. Humans had colonized the solar system and were in the process of beginning to colonize planets outside of it in this period. Further, Earth was not fully unified under the World Government until 2150 as per "Attached" (TNG). We certainly cannot just assume the logos used by United Earth in 2151 and by the Kzinti (or rather some Kzinti, as the episode does not indicate that symbol to represent the Kzinti government) in 2269 as being representative of either in the period in question. The wars are never mentioned by a proper name. The episode is not even explicit that the Treaty of Sirius was signed immediately following and as a direct result of the last war, although that certainly seems to me a more logical inference to draw than the above. I propose that this article be renamed to one of the following or something similar: "Kzinti wars with humankind" (most accurate to dialogue) "Kzinti-Human wars" (more accurate than "Earth-Kzin Wars") "Man-Kzin wars" (if we wanted to go with Niven's name, not that we do, just throwing it in there) --Side Rat (talk) 07:59, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :No renaming is necessary, even though Sulu didn't explicitly name Earth. We only know that the last war was "200 years ago", which if taken literally would be 2069, 6 years after the Phoenix, and 9 years before Terra Nova, which was the only human colony (outside the solar system) at the time. - Compvox (talk) 09:27, August 20, 2016 (UTC) But there is no indication these wars were fought on Earth, nor even with humans from Earth as opposed to Luna or Mars or the asteroid colonies that existed prior to 2069 as per "Terra Nova." There is no indication any Earth government was involved either. That doesn't mean it's definitely not the case either, but we have no reason to assume it, and calling them the "Earth-Kzin Wars" implies both that and that this is a name by which they are called in-universe, to which there is no canonical reference. --Side Rat (talk) 09:42, August 20, 2016 (UTC) ::Given the time frame it seems extremely unlikely other humans or other governments were involved. Where else would they have come from? 31dot (talk) 09:51, August 20, 2016 (UTC) : Well, I don't know if was a planet-side/open-space war or if Sulu was mistaken. But I think "humankind" explains itself taking canon evidence and sense into account. - Compvox (talk) 10:19, August 20, 2016 (UTC) - Compvox (talk) 10:31, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::I'd opt for "Kzinti-Human wars". --Defiant (talk) 11:12, August 20, 2016 (UTC) Humans had been engaging in interplanetary travel since before 2018 as per "Space Seed" (TOS), and the Solar system had been colonized well before Terra Nova was even discovered. Deep space exploration was being engaged in and various other colonization efforts had been launched to unspecified locations as per "Up The Long Ladder" (TNG) and "The Terratin Incident" (TAS). Humans were out and about. Regarding governments, we have no indication of which human one(s) were involved, if any, which is kind of the point. There wasn't a fully unified Earth government until a year before ENT started, which was well after the Kzinti conflicts had ended. (Personally, I like to believe that it was the Vulcans who initially brokered and enforced this Treaty of Sirius, which we would scarcely have been in much position to do ourselves, and that it wasn't only the Kzinti who had restrictions imposed on them by it. The Vulcans were clearly trying to rein us in and manage our interstellar "foreign affairs" for us at the outset of ENT. This might even be the reason why Starfleet had to be initially founded as an "officially" non-military organization and why the MACOs had no off-world presence until after the Xindi attack. This is mostly pure speculation that doesn't belong in any MA article, of course. I say it here only to illustrate that such speculation is possible in the first place because "The Slaver Weapon" says nothing that would contradict it.) But in quibbling over details, let's not lose sight of the real point here: there is no canonical basis for an in-universe name of "Earth-Kzin Wars," as there is for the "Earth-Romulan War(s)" by contrast. The episode says the wars were fought by Kzinti with humankind, and to say "humankind" is synonymous with "Earth" is reading something into the reference that isn't specified therein. I simply want the title of the article to be based on and derived from what is actually said in the episode. The rest is all a distraction. "Kzinti wars with humankind" or "Kzinti-Human wars" would satisfy that. "Earth-Kzin Wars" does not.--Side Rat (talk) 11:13, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :I disagree on the reasons stated above. And a special thanks to Larry N ;) - Compvox (talk) 11:56, August 20, 2016 (UTC) ::::Side Rat is correct about the supposition involved with this article title -- it is only said that the Kzinti warred with "Humankind", without any mention of Earth. Side Rat has cited correctly that Humankind had indeed spread beyond Earth to other planets in the Sol system by the time of first contact based on episodic date references such as the interplanetary ships of 2018 (indicating there are ships and destinations off-Earth) and the asteroid settlers that pre-dated Terra Nova. It is equally likely that Kzin warfare could have taken place at any point in the Sol system where Humans lived. ::::The missing quantity is whether or not the Humankind who warred with the Kzin were actually beholden to a government on Earth (which would justify the title as Earth would be the their operating authority as a governmental power) or if they had an independent settlement that had not aligned with the central authority -- since this is before there was a United Earth, it would of course be saying they were beholden to some authority ON Earth, which could be an individual nation state or alliance but would definitely be on Earth. ::::But since there is a possibility that any of the aforementioned off-Earth settlements might have declared themselves independent of Earth, there is the possibility the mention of Earth is incorrect as supposition -- Captain MKB 13:07, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::::The StarTrek.com article about the Kzinti says the Kzinti have initiated no fewer than four wars against Earth. NetSpiker (talk) 13:25, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::...and...?! That's neither here nor there, as it's non-canon. --Defiant (talk) 13:33, August 20, 2016 (UTC) ::It does mean that it isn't just us making something up, but a reasonable conclusion. 31dot (talk) 13:37, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::I think it's fairly obviously both "made up" and "a reasonable conclusion". The question is... is it canon? The answer is clearly "no". --Defiant (talk) 13:42, August 20, 2016 (UTC) : I agree with Side Rat, the article should relabeled to Mankind-Kzin-Wars, because of its canonical mention in the episode. --Mark McWire (talk) 13:48, August 20, 2016 (UTC) ::A lot of supposition is "a reasonable conclusion". That doesn't make supposition allowable on Memory Alpha. Non-canon references are not a factor in Memory Alpha information. -- Captain MKB 13:57, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::::StarTrek.com isn't canon, but it has been used to name other articles like Pentaran and Mislenite. Personally, I don't care whether this article ends up being called "Earth-Kzin Wars" or "Kzinti-Human wars". Both are correct. NetSpiker (talk) 14:04, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::Um... not really. "Kzinti-Human wars" is far more accurate to what's represented in canon. --Defiant (talk) 14:19, August 20, 2016 (UTC) Perhaps the tack I should have taken in the first place is to ask that anyone who opposes renaming the article "Kzinti-Human wars" outline his or her reasons why such a name is less accurate and/or acceptable. (BTW, I'll change the proposed title tag on the article's rename template to that, since it seems to be the more popular of my two suggestions thus far, and I'd be perfectly happy with it, provided the lower case is observed on "wars" so as not to imply this title is a proper name by which the conflicts were collectively called in-universe.)--Side Rat (talk) 14:47, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::Seems like a good idea. :) --Defiant (talk) 14:49, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :::::I agree that "wars" should be in lower case. NetSpiker (talk) 15:20, August 20, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Support for a rename here. Not that I think the current name is a big issue, since the name isn't going to be a canon one either way. But the new one seems more logical. Also, I would like to add that the word humankind kinda implies that Earth was involved, whatever solar system colonies might also be. It would be odd to have them fight solely with the then-tiny martian colony and it still being referred like that. -- Capricorn (talk) 19:17, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :I oppose the renaming but agree that it's not that big of an issue either way. - Compvox (talk) 21:32, August 20, 2016 (UTC) I should note that given the possibility that one or more of the wars did involve Earth directly, I have no objection to them continuing to be included in the category of "Earth wars prior to the Federation" under the new title, with a background note indicating that it remains unspecified exactly where and with whom they were fought. I also have no objection to the startrek.com reference to them being fought "against Earth" being included in the background information. --Side Rat (talk) 01:38, August 21, 2016 (UTC) ::::::: I think it is worth noting that in place of "inventing" another new title for this, and we've certainly come up with some doozies, we certainly should consider the source. Consider the episode's title card: written by Larry Niven; adapted from his story "The Soft Weapon", and what term is most commonly, or rather, familiarly associated with this conflict in the original adaptation of his work: "Man-Kzin Wars". Seeing as this is in essence, a crossover between or meeting of two franchises, the term "Man-Kzin Wars" certainly carries provenance. --Alan (talk) 05:38, August 21, 2016 (UTC) I would not oppose using that title, either, and did include it among my initial suggestions. At the conclusion of the episode, Spock says its events "could have sparked a new war between Man and Kzinti" so it does have a basis in the dialogue, as well as reflects Niven's own term, and still addresses the issue I take with "Earth-Kzin Wars" too! Perhaps using it is the most appealing option after all, even though I expected it would be met with resistance. Maybe I should have pushed more for it from the outset. (I think the "wars" part should still be rendered lower case for our purposes, though.)--Side Rat (talk) 06:08, August 21, 2016 (UTC) ::::::It's not the conventional thing to do, but I've got to admit there's a certain beauty to the idea. -- Capricorn (talk) 00:18, August 23, 2016 (UTC) :::I'd like to caution against using it for 2 reasons: (1) "man" is the sexist, old-fashioned form of saying "human" (which is why it was replaced with "one" in the opening monologue between TOS and TNG), so I'd prefer we use the term "human" or "humankind" instead; (2) the alien species is never called "Kzin" in canon, so we shouldn't either, instead opting for "Kzinti". In conclusion, therefore, I'd recommend using either "Human-Kzinti wars", "Humankind-Kzinti wars", "Kzinti-Human" wars", or "Kzinti-Humankind wars", with my preference still being "Human-Kzinti wars". --Defiant (talk) 01:39, August 23, 2016 (UTC) "Kzin" is used in the final draft script and attached storyboards for "The Time Trap" (TAS) as the singular form of the name, to identify a single member of the Kzinti race. A single individual is NEVER called "a Kzinti" in "The Slaver Weapon". In canon as defined by Memory Alpha, "Kzinti" has ONLY been used collectively or as an adjective ("a Kzinti spacecraft"; "the Kzinti government" et al.) so there is no conflict in accepting Kzin as the singular form according to production intent. It conforms to our policy of using production sources to name things when no name is given in the canon, so long as there is no conflict with the canon in doing so. (No term for a singular Kzinti individual is given in the canon, but one is given in production sources, and it does not conflict with the canon.) Since our policy is also to name species in the singular form in article titles, this means we actually should use "Kzin" rather than "Kzinti". (This also means that the page for the species should be retitled in the same form, BTW. I can't believe in all the work I've been doing on the Kzinti article that I didn't think of that until just now!) Whether "Man" is considered "sexist" and/or "old fashioned" is quite subjective, but one way or another it has most definitely been used many times as an in-universe term for humankind within the canon, including specifically in "The Slaver Weapon". Still, perhaps "human" is more encyclopedic. "Human-Kzin wars"? It's pretty close to Niven's term, and also represents the least change from the title we're already using. We simply swap out "Earth" for "Human" (the same would also hold true if we did use "Man", of course). The opening statement can include the other phrasings used as well, something like: "Four wars between Man and Kzinti, or '''Human-Kzin wars', were fought in the late 21st century. The Kzinti lost all of these wars with Humankind."'' I will change the rename template again, and then see what discussion follows. (I am still not opposed to "Man-Kzin wars" personally, so if others WANT that title over "Human-Kzin wars" please speak up. I think either is FAR preferable to Earth-Kzin wars, and I view the primary objective here as being to change THAT title as soon as possible, but I don't want to jump the gun by not letting the discussion run its course in considering the best replacement, and then have to change it all over again.) The background section for the page will establish that no proper name was given for the conflicts in the episode, and how they are referred to in Niven's other works. As stated above, it should also establish that the episode does not specify the exact location, scope, or duration of the wars, and briefly outline a few of the most relevant/important details of the Known Space version, emphasizing the obvious observable differences in what is known of the Star Trek version in canon. It can also include the note that startrek.com has suggested the wars were initiated by the Kzinti against Earth (again, neither of which points were established in the episode, which should be emphasized).--Side Rat (talk) 23:25, August 24, 2016 (UTC) :::It's "Kzinti", not "Kzin". I suggest you keep in mind we're only permitted to use script references when something is unnamed in canon. The Kzinti have a canon name! So, unless you have some new piece of evidence to add to that discussion, the issue is resolved. Regarding the naming of the wars, my preference still remains "Human-Kzinti wars", but I'm likewise interested in hearing what others are thinking about the name. --Defiant (talk) 23:51, August 24, 2016 (UTC) Kzinti is not a singular form, there is no indication in canon that it is, and there is counter-indication in the production materials to that unsupported assumption based on canon. Check for yourself, you will find that no single individual of the Kzinti race is ever referred to as "a Kzinti" in "The Slaver Weapon". If there had been a reason to refer to such an individual, the form used would have been "a Kzin," which is indicated to us by the script and storyboards of "The Time Trap".--Side Rat (talk) 00:03, August 25, 2016 (UTC) :::I'm aware that's your position on the matter, though I strongly disagree. --Defiant (talk) 00:26, August 25, 2016 (UTC) On the basis of what evidence in the canon do you disagree?--Side Rat (talk) 01:17, August 25, 2016 (UTC)